Markell Williams
@markell.williams on his sofa in his front room.
-Theatre-
My interview with Markell was the longest and most heart-wrenching conversation I had for this project. So I’ll keep this short so you can have time to get to all the good stuff he says below.
He played my lover in a New Years Eve show. That’s how we met. We have spent two New Year’s together partying in 19th century garb and they have been the most fulfilling and warm celebrations of my adult life. All because of his open and kind demeanor to say nothing of his talent.
I will be forever grateful for the time he took to tell me how he was feeling. It brought a depth to our relationship for me. I hope reading it brings clarity and depth of our community to you.
Interviewed 6.6.20
This interview has been edited for length and clarity.
Casey: How are you?
Markell: I'm good... and a bunch of other hyphens.
Casey: What other hyphens?
Markell: The hyphens are - some days I wake up and I just want to lay in bed and wallow in my shit. But then, you know, you can't.
Casey: We're in quarantine, technically, you could.
Markell: I could, but I can't. And I think that's probably been the hardest for me because there's been a lot of messaging going around saying what you should or shouldn't do. I've fallen victim to sending out a message of quite the same. “This is what people could do and you can take this time to really make things happen and blah blah blah blah blah”.
One of the messages is that you should take the time to rest and I can't. I have to be doing something. I just find myself bouncing around and just working on different projects and keeping myself busy. Luckily for me, summer school started up again and I was called to teach math. So I'm with the kiddos for three weeks. So that's making me feel like I have some type of a purpose now. And this time sort of feels normal. With the addition of telling kids, "If you don't have a mask, you will not be coming into my class, get a mask." That would be the only, you know, kind of like...
Casey: It's in-person summer school?
Markell: Oh yeah, in person, not virtual. It's the school board. They decided to do a test trial with the summer school kids.
Casey: They're guinea pigs for Covid.
Markell: Right, guinea pigs. [To] see how it goes. I will say, just for those who might worry about that, we are very, very, very careful. It's 20 kids at my school. It's both middle school and high school. So we have the kids split up into different sides. The only rotations that are happening is between the teachers, there are temperature checks that are happening on everyone before we enter into the door. Obviously, there's a heavy, sanitized thing that happens before and after. So we're doing all of the things on top of a trial to see how this goes, to see if this will be something that we could do for the school year because it's coming.
And the sad thing for everyone not being able to open up doors is half of my students that are in summer school are only there not because they didn't know the material, but because they don't have internet all the time. And so in neighborhoods like this, the one you're in interviewing me now, it fluctuates where they might be able to afford it one month and the next month they can't. So a lot of my student’s stories this summer is specifically, "Well, I didn't have access" or let's say, "The hotspot is on mommy's phone, but mommy's at work until six o'clock" and they're not going to be able to try to catch up. So that's been the crazy thing because if it does go all virtual, I do wonder about a specific group of kids who don't have access to a powerful broadband.
Casey: So if summer school just started, what have you been doing in quarantine before that?
Markell: I've always upcycled clothing for myself. And years ago when I did it a whole lot, I would get stopped and people would ask me, "Where did you get this thing?" And I'd be like, "I made it!" And they go, "Well do you do this all the time?" I'm like, "No, I'm too lazy." And I had been talking to my boyfriend about me possibly doing this as a thing on the side. So when this came along, I was able to kind of put my energy into it all. I woke up one morning, my best friend James had asked me six years ago to make him a Jem and the Holograms inspired jacket. And I was like, "Yeah, sure, I'll make it." And then six years later, we're in this situation where I have time to really put some thought and energy behind it. And I just woke up one morning and I started making his trench and that kind of spawned into me creating and upcycling a slew of things. So I'm in the process of building inventory to launch my upcycle thrift company.
Casey: It sounds like you've been using the time to be physically productive. How has it been mentally?
Markell: Working on that, the stuff that I've been working on, has been therapeutic for me. I've been embroidering for the first time, trying my hand at that. And I did just complete this huge snake on a t-shirt and it's crazy. I sound crazy. It sounds crazy, but just pulling that thread through the fabric and watching it take shape over time from the beginning stages like, "This looks like shit, why did I even start this shit?" And then it starts to form a little bit and you're like, "Well, maybe it's not shit," but then you look at all of the rest of this pattern that you have left, and you're like, "What the fuck did I get myself into?" And then once you get midway, you're like, "Okay, let's do this."
During this time, too, I might add, I was also dealing with the whole Georgia Department of Labor situation, filing for unemployment, filing for food stamps, and that being a process of months. It's like everyone I'm sure, it was like three weeks to get that I wasn't approved. Then I didn't know anything about PUA at the time, which is the Pandemic Unemployment Assistance program. I didn't know anything about that. So of course, I tried to I guess, what do they call it, attest it?
Casey: Contest?
Markell: Yeah, the decision that I got, I wasn't approved again and then long story short, about two months later, I was approved for PUA. And then about two weeks later, I was able to start receiving funds. So throughout that whole stress of that, I was not able to get in contact with a physical body at all. Like at all. However, one of the beacons in my life, surprisingly, was social media, because there's this Facebook group called Covid 19 Pandemic Relief. The group houses over eight thousand people in Georgia, all that are sharing in these issues of this whole unemployment and applying and being confused with some of the application process and not being able to speak with people.
But what has been great about it is that people share certain numbers that they're able to get in contact with. Mark Butler, who is the job commissioner or whatever, he was the first person that I was able to get a response from by the time I had already gotten approved for PUA because I was kind of confused with some of the terminology. But just that group and being able to help other people with things that I discovered on my own has been great.
But again, tying that back into me working on that stuff around the house just has been able to help me mentally. If I wasn't creative in that way, I don't know mentally if I would have been okay. The stress level would have just been very, very, very high.
Casey: Have you talked to your family?
Markell: I have. My mom is still working back home. She's never stopped. So she's been fine. She's actually been sending me a whole slew of stuff. - Thank you Mom. Stop. - I have a shit ton of gloves and these little masks that, bless her heart, it's not covering my face, so I'm going to donate them. But yeah, she's fine. My dad's fine. Everything has flipped to the virtual world for him. So everyone's good.
Casey: Have they been staying safe? Have they been following the guidelines?
Markell: Oh, definitely. The difference is that because we're in the city, we get the bulk of it. They're in South Carolina, which is very country and rural. So it doesn't appear to be as bad to them.
Casey: And she's sending you masks.
Markell: Right! And gloves and all of that. “I know that you need this probably more than me.” They have these corner mom and pop stores that they can pop in and out for their needs, whereas in city life, depending upon what's closed because of curfew or because of how busy it is you might have to drive way out to another area.
Casey: That curfew is crazy.
Markell: Very crazy. It's eight on weekends now.
Casey: So what do you miss from before?
Markell: I miss the auditioning.
Casey: Probably not a popular opinion.
Markell: I know right? I miss it. I really, really, really miss it. I miss the hustle and bustle of contacting someone to come over and help me with the scene and molding my day around, "Oh, I have this one that I need to send in and I need to prepare for this in-person thing over here - oh, I just got another one so I have to move things around."
That to me was the hustle and bustle of my day outside of teaching. That's the only other way that I generate income. So that was my job; my main thing. And so that's what I miss. Everything else I can say has pretty much stayed the same. I am a natural homebody and believe it or not, introvert. So I've always communicated with my friends via the phone. And so that for me is very regular.
Casey: Are you going to stores like you were before?
Markell: Yeah. I've always had to because I don't really cook. So it was either UberEats or me running around to one of the local businesses to grab a bite to eat or getting just some basic general groceries or something like that. That really hasn't changed for me.
The only thing that's changed for me now is just the whole process of the mask and making sure that you're six feet apart and just trying to be patient. Just because people are stressed and tense and you can get into arguments real easy when people are ready to kind of get in and out. Walmart at one point had kind of this process where you had to wait in this line, but it was kind of confusing so people were just walking up and arguments were happening and stuff like that. So that's been one of the things for me that has really changed is just the stress level obviously has intensified. I've just had to prep myself to be patient before walking into those situations just so on my end they don't go left.
Casey: Has that gotten worse over the last two weeks?
Markell: No, not for me, probably because I haven't needed to go out for anything during this mess. Literally before shit hit the fan, I went and did this huge shopping spree at freaking Wal Mart, got what I needed and then this happened. So I haven't really needed to go anywhere like that. I think today while I was out running some quick errands, this was the first time I've actually ran into protesters. These protesters were just on the sidewalks holding up signs, it wasn't in the streets or anything like that. Most of my friends are getting caught in traffic or whatever, but not me. I've just bypassed all of that.
Casey: Do you have any new habits or rituals or things that you started doing during quarantine for self-care or creatively that you want to keep doing once things pick back up again and once a new normal starts?
Markell: Yeah. I have been connecting with people that I haven't typically kept up with. I have people that I communicated with prior to this moment that were specific to Instagram, that was specific to Twitter, that was specific to Facebook. And that was how we communicated. And during this, the amount of time that I've been spending on the phone, connecting with people, like face to face, just having conversations and fighting through that awkwardness in the early stages to it becoming very comfortable with now talking with this person in a different way, in a more personal way, as opposed to just the DM or talking on a meme. I definitely want to keep that up.
And friends that the conversation might have been kind of like once a month, it's become once a week. I think that it's reminded me how much I miss those people without subconsciously knowing that I miss them. Most of my friends, I've been friends with since we were in preschool. You've gone through major milestones with these individuals. Whenever the conversations get less and less, whenever they move on and life takes them to different areas geographically, they kind of exist as the people that they were before they left. If you're not keeping up with them, then when you're actually talking to them, you're in the midst of their life and they're in the midst of yours, you actually see that this is a different person. But it's cool, it's still the same person, but this is a different person. I missed just a tad bit of that growth. You're around someone so much you don't see it because you're in it with them, you're growing and building together.
I think that's one of the things that I definitely want to hold close is just the communication and then the way that I've been able to multitask. I've always been good at that. Toot, toot. But really just from writing, because that's one of the other things that I've really throw myself into is writing and then hopping on to this upcycle company and what that will turn into, what that might look like, maintaining a relationship through Covid and friendships, making time for all of that.
Whenever the chaos of auditions get thrown back into play, I'm interested to see how I'm able to hold all of this up with that being thrown into the mix, because that typically just fucks everything up. But, you know, we'll see.
Casey: How has the motivation been to create during this? You're talking about your upcycle company and writing. Are there days where it's hard to do that?
Markell: It depends on the project. And I think that that's the beautiful thing about us as actors. We're so many different things. When I get stuck on one thing, you could just hop on another. And so for instance there's this project that I've been working on for three years now called We the People and what it is is a documentary-style theatrical piece that questions the state of black America as it relates to our Constitution.
You can imagine, there are things that, in doing the research on both sides, I've run upon information that's just there for everyone to find. And I'm like, "Wow, I did not know this." I mean, I've had to take a mental break from that and really digest what I just read and confirm that is what I just read. So I need to take a break from this and then move on to this other thing that I'm working on over here that doesn't really require me to think outside of threading the needle.
Casey: What was one of the things that you read about in your research that blew you away?
Markell: Media Matters is a compass or moral checker for all of your news media outlets. They had a review of the media and its source checks. And they had discovered that they had inflated black crime. I think it was by point four percent, specifically because people watched the news more whenever they inflated black crime.
And to me, that was just very criminal and I didn't understand how someone could be allowed to do that, because for me as a black person, what that meant was these people were deliberately inflating a stereotype that they know perpetuates and panders fear in an environment that already sees and associates black skin with aggression and criminality and violence. And what that does to someone like me. A simple altercation with someone else isn't a simple altercation because of these news outlets.
We're indoctrinated to believe that everything that's coming from them is just the truth. And so I couldn't wrap my head around why any company would do that. And I get that news is a business. And at the end of the day, it's a business about getting eyes glued to their station. But I just couldn't for the life of me and still can't, especially when I first found it out, how could anyone legally do that? Because it's a lie. You're deliberately inflating the crime in that area just for eyes on your station. But at the cost of what? The cost of the interactions that we're seeing happening right now that become so violent that don't have to.
I almost dropped my damn computer. That was one of the things that really just like - I checked and double-checked because I was like, "This can't be and if it is, then why aren't you screaming this from the mountaintops?" Because I know whenever I've shared that with people, just the look on their faces is like, "What?" No one really knows that, but it's so easy to find. And I wouldn't've found it if I wasn't writing this project.
Casey: This show sounds like it's more important than ever. Have recent developments made you more interested in working? Or are you like, "I can't even deal with this right now?"?
Markell: It's been up and down. So if you're someone who is on social media and, take the activist thing out of it, it feels like hashtags are just constantly being replaced with a new name. Same story, just new name, gender, whatever. The piece that I'm doing, it's not just a documentary-style where it's just talking, it's also physical theatre. So there would be a movement that would be juxtaposed on to whatever the monologue would be. So it's required, obviously, that when you're building these narratives for these different individuals, that you kind of know these people that you're including in your piece. Something's happening that, I don't want to say that takes precedence over this one, because one life was obviously not better or more important than the next, but there was a certain step that might have happened where a police officer did something that was very blatant but the state really turned a blind eye in this situation.
And so now it's like, "Okay, do I just give this person to replace it with this [person]? Because this highlights this narrative a lot more to this portion of the story." So it just feels like a Rolodex and it's like when you're in the thick of it, when you're tied to it, it's kind of hard to let certain things go. It becomes very personal.
And it's one of those situations where you're stuck as an artist trying to figure out, "Okay, well, how do you do what's best for the story, which means sometimes things get cut. But then how do you tell everyone's story in a way that doesn't kind of overpower or water down the story with just hashtags?" So that's been the thing. And it's very telling because it's caused me to rethink a lot of the structure of the show, because, again, writing something like this, I started four years [ago]. And literally, you can imagine, the amount of names has grown.
There's a section where 10 actors come out. There would be 20 photos that each of them would have, and it was just a segment where they were just calling out the names and telling how they got killed - A broken tail light, Sandra Bland, photo drop. - And I was talking with one of my friends that I'm kind of bouncing ideas off of and I was like, “At this point if we tried to do everyone, they would not be able to walk out. They would need about 10 other people to help them hold out the photos.” So that's the other downside is that it's just like, "Wow, the amount of deaths that have accumulated within that time frame." It speaks to why this particular story is necessary. Yeah, it's hard to digest all of that and try to put all of that in a story, in a way, again, that's digestible. It is a lot.
Casey: I think that makes it even more important, the fact that you're trying to make it into something that's digestible so that it doesn't get forgotten.
Markell: Yeah. Rachel Parrish, I shared the idea of it first with her. And she posed the very important question to me, she asked me, who was it for? And I thought I knew who it was for. But then after really thinking about it, I was like, "Well, no. This isn't a story for black people. We know this. This is more of a story for a white person.” This is our story and this story is even in a way to where - is it biased? Yes, but I work hard in this particular piece to also bring in opposing ideas that make both sides really, really think and contemplate. And so it's really a story that is specifically for white people. And then because of that, it changes the way in which I then would present it. And so that has been very interesting and helpful.
Casey: What do you think you'll take out of this time? We've got obviously Black Lives Matter happening in a way it never has quite before on top of a global pandemic where we've all been really isolated and not doing the things we would normally get to do or having time to do the things that we want to do. So let's pretend that the pandemic is almost over and we can look back with hindsight. What do you take away from this? What would you tell your kids?
Markell: I think to me, our world is a living organism. We live in a world that has living beings from plant life and animal life. And I don't think that that world - it's just not dead. It is alive within itself. And I think that I would tell them that we lived in a time when the world told us to stop. This was the universe's way or God's way or whatever’s way [of saying] that we needed to come to a stop.
You had all of these animals that were popping up now that people had in essence abandoned these spots because we had to. And so now they could finally come out and enjoy these spaces. You have people who were begging and pleading for more time at home with their kids, but their job said they couldn't see how that could work. Now they've had to make it work. Now the jobs are seeing that the spaces, plural, that they are renting to house a bulk of their employees are unneeded because they can all do their work effectively from home. You see that a lot of these people who wanted to work from home because they were missing out on their kids' lives and their husbands' lives are rushing to get back into the work.
Grass isn't always greener, but we're learning to work through our shit, and that's what I see happening. I see a lot more community than I ever have in my adult life. This Covid 19 group really helped me. And there's so many other stories like that. There are so many other groups that are helping the elderly. And because they're separated from their young kids, they don't have access to them to just hop on the computer and do the things that they would normally do for them. So this group and groups like these in nature are helping them to move forward and find out the necessary things.
There's probably three people, three mature individuals that I'm helping all the time that they're DMing me and asking me certain things. Again, I think that this has opened up so many eyes. And I think that on both sides, people are realizing that certain struggles that are temporary in nature, also with tying it into George Floyd and the many other hashtags before him, are trivial in comparison to what certain people, specifically black people, go through all the time. It's like there's a difference in being locked in, being in unfamiliar circumstances and not worrying where money is going to come from, being told that you have to wear a mask before you enter into a place. That has a time stamp on it. At least that's what the scientists tell us. Right?
Being a person of color doesn't have a time stamp. And I've had to be black and deal with this pandemic. I've been black my whole life so there's certain things that over time, you just adjust. And you learn very early on how to navigate through that. And I think that's part of the reason why the reaction to George Floyd is very different is because it's happened during this time where people are kind of at a standstill. They're not able to get lost in the bulk of the work, the hustle and bustle of going out to the bar and just bar it out. They're stuck. And then you're stuck with your family in these situations. And now people are more able to imagine George as someone at their dinner table or someone that they know that's close to them. And then obviously, this video of this cop and his knee in his neck for eight minutes and some change, that definitely helped. I think people were able to see it for what it really was. Because there are other damning videos. For me, it will always be Tamir Rice. This young 12-year-old boy, when the police was called on him, whoever called the cops on him thought he was a man. And the police arrived and in less than two seconds from them arriving onto the scene, just jumped out of the car and unloaded his gun into this [child]. So to me, I would have thought that if any case would have been the case where everyone would have jumped on that, it would have been Tamir Rice. It was not at all. That's the case that I think keeps me up at night.
Casey: Is it a good thing that this is happening now?
Markell: Oh, yes, definitely. Definitely, to me, yes. All of the cases are important. It's not getting lost in the hustle and bustle. And so it's definitely good that it's happening now. The problem is for someone like me, I have to keep it going because I don't want people who look like me to always have to deal with this shit.
Casey: Are you worried it'll just stop?
Markell: I am. Because we've seen it happen so many other times. And at some point, in Atlanta, I'd have to say, this is the first time I've seen so many white bodies out in the forefront, holding up Black Lives Matter signs, chanting. And so to me, that's hope.
But this is happening now when we're in a situation where we can be at somewhat of a rest and we have time to do a lot, where we can be available. But what happens whenever the world gets going again? Do we get pushed aside again? I'm optimistic, but I won't be surprised if it goes back to the same old, same old. To me, you have to understand that even while you had people protesting this, this shit was still happening. Even here in Atlanta, you had these two cops taze these two kids that were in their car because they were out a little bit after the curfew. Now by the time we're getting these curfew things to our phone - the first night, I got it at eight o'clock. One of my roommates, he got his I think he said it was nine o'clock, it said that the curfew was at 8:00. So it was like, what kind of danger were these people to themselves or to anyone else inside their car? They were trying to get home. Good thing that these cops got fired.
Do I care here locally how people interact with me and those who look like me? Yes. But ultimately, what matters to me is the laws and the training that these individuals that are enforcing laws, the people that I encounter, that are licensed to correct me and have support from our government. What type of training do they have and how is this affecting them? Because it's been very clear to me and again, the media has its hand in it and they can pick and choose what to show and yada, yada, yada. But it just doesn't look good that in the midst of these protests that are protesting brutality, that a 75-year-old man that got his skull cracked open for simply trying to hand someone a mist shield mask? I mean, the way that that officer pushed - this just doesn't look good in the midst of all of this. It's awful.
So for me, I care more so about what is going to happen, what is the recourse for these officers and at some point, you have to hold - people are always saying "not all." Yes, anyone who's had a probability and statistics class, we know that yes, it's not all.
It's enough to keep the good people from speaking up because, yes, I know that there are some individuals out there that are emboldened by power to do some God awful things. I understand that. But I can't, for the life of me believe that everyone is like that. So there is something, some old unspoken thing that the majority of us don't know about that's keeping these people from getting involved or speaking up. Something needs to happen to tear that down because while I'm certain not everyone condones that, but they have to stay in line for some reason, for some type of repercussions, something. Something is happening in that organization that they just need to get it together.
Casey: Do you think nine months of people being out of work has the opportunity for the protests and the thoughts that are being shared now to actually take hold instead of just getting forgotten?
Markell: I'll say this and I think that if you are a white person and you are having these tough conversations without the inclusion of a person of color, then you are at risk of going back to the same old, same old. Because as a white person, you can't understand and a black person can help you to have an idea of what it's like. There are so many stories now where people are really just sharing a whole lot on the internet about the things that they've encountered from theatres and every black person has a story. And I think with everything that has happened from this pandemic to another hashtag, we know that people are in a position where they can't help but to listen. You have people even on the flip side that had racist moments that are confessing now, and I think a lot of it has to do with we now are given the time to sit with ourselves and really face ourselves and really take in. Who is it? What is it? What is it that we're trying to put out into the world?
We can't run away and indulge in whatever it is that makes you get over or forget or push it to the side. And so I think that if you are in a situation where you are compelled to talk about diversity and talk about what it is that can be done and what you can do, I think it should include a person of color. Whatever conversation it is, it can't be all white. That's pretty much what the world is now. It's predominantly all white. Those conversations are happening amongst white men that are developing laws that are meant to represent black people in these issues and it hasn't helped. It will help if you have a person of color to help filter the conversation and navigate the conversation.
But then once the world stops, if you don't have a body to associate it to and make it personal, then it's not effective. I mean, we know that as actors, if we're not really attaching that to something, to some physical object to something that's tangible, that we have some type of emotional claim to? It's hollow.
It's hollow because even if you add in the other hashtags. There's been so many cases for us to rally behind before George Floyd, where there was a lot of white support at the beginning, but then it runs hollow. That often times is when you look at the conversations that are happening, they're in separate spaces.
But at the end of [the day], I think black people, we're in a time where, particularly my generation, we're tired. It seems that you're explaining all the time, and we're not even in situations where we're psychologically trained to even have these conversations; to even attempt to make a white person aware of blackness and what that means. For instance, I just had a conversation with the CEO of a school, he wanted to meet with me and another black teacher to talk about everything that was happening. And he posed the question very similar to what you're getting at, but the question he asked was "What can white people do? What should the conversation be?"
I think one of the blessings and curses about me is that you look at me and you can't tell that I come from a very underprivileged neighborhood. To the point where when I was younger, you could see it on us. It was easy to tell because of how our voices sounded and the words that were coming out, the conversation was a little too gritty for us to have come from a certain neighborhood. I say that to say, I would get ran out of a lot of yards. It would be the way that I dressed, it would be the way that I was talking, they called it then of being “a little too manish”, “being a little too grown”. But it's a conversation that even blacks that come from middle-class families have a hard time, not harder than white people, but still a hard time grappling that there are certain things that as black people we have to do to be taken seriously. So much of my day, depending upon what space I'm entering in, is based off that morning, I've spent time considering what to wear. I've spent time considering how am I going to wear my hair if it's longer. Obviously, depending upon if it's an interview, depending upon if it's some type of just regular meeting, it's still going to have an effect. One in which I'm watering down my blackness to make a white person comfortable.
And I say all of that to say my experience with white people has been, "Well, we all do that. We all have to be conscious about what we're wearing whenever we're entering into different spaces." And so somehow the message gets lost that we are somehow making a bigger deal out of getting ready to walk into a new space than we should. And the thing is no, we have to because of the preconceived ideas, because of the stereotypes that are associated with my skin, I have to come in whitewashed so as to sanitize those preconceived ideas off of me.
The other thing, I have a bachelor’s in chemistry and, with certain companies here in Atlanta, I started out sending my resume to them with my name. No response, nothing. And I read, there was this forum where they were talking about how to navigate your way through white spaces when you're trying to enter into certain jobs. They were saying that if you had a black-sounding name if you have a middle name that is a neutral middle name, use that. And lightbulb went ding. And I used Wayne for those companies. One of those companies I ended up working for three years because literally the moment I changed my name, I was called in for an interview within two weeks. Went in, interviewed, got the job, and was there for three years. Prior to, that company in particular I had applied to twice using my first name, Markell, had not gotten a response. Didn't even get an email saying thank you for submitting, blah, blah, blah. Nothing.
So I think that you need to be open to take in some things that may sound very different than how you navigate through a world, but being open to understanding that is not something that we're making up, that this is something that is literally ingrained in how we have to go about our day,
Casey: Like not saying, "We all have to decide what we're going to wear in a meeting."
Markell: Yeah. But the thing is, she believed that and I think that that gets to the bigger problem. How do you have those difficult conversations with that person so that something happens where you can at least kind of try, attempt to penetrate so that that person does understand. That at this point now, not only do we have video evidence of it, but there's so many studies that clearly show that this behavior is a necessary thing for these people, because if not, this is the preconceived idea.
Casey: We see what happens. If they don't follow these imaginary rules.
Markell: Exactly.
